Rev. Remi Oluyale, the author of the wide circulating expository book, GOD’S WONDER BANK, being distributed free in churches, at ministers conferences and to gospel ministers across Nigeria has opened the lids on some of the serious issues he raised in the book, which he identifies as being responsible for many of the rots and some of the unwholesome practices in many churches today. In this interview with Christian Benefits‘ Olaide Afolayan about the book, Oluyale; a seasoned scholar, a respected theologian and a builder of ministers, reveals some of the dangers bedeviling many Nigerian churches today, including the lukewarm church attendants whom he calls the incorrigible offended brethren in the flock and the prosperity gospel pitfalls among other malaises affecting many Nigerian churches today. Excerpts.
How would you like to be introduced?
You can address me as Pastor Remi or Brother Remi. The title “brother” is higher than any other title. You’re not supposed to be a pastor without first being a brother.
How did you get to know Christ?
I gave my life to Christ in 1981 but there was no follow up, so I didn’t grow. In 1983 I gave my life to Christ again and from that time I’ve been going forward.
Share with us your walk with Christ since you accepted him fully in 1983 till date
After becoming born again in 1983 I attended Oyo State College of Arts & Sciences (OSCAS) Ile-Ife now in Osun state where I found myself in the midst of ministers. From 1984 I’ve been going out to minister in crusades and outreaches in villages. I started a ministry in 1985 going for mission works, establishing churches in villages, grooming and raising leaders and handing them over to existing ministries around their localities. We’ve done several of this under a ministry called Healing Jesus ministry under the leadership of Rev. Areogun.
Briefly, share with us your lifestyle before accepting Christ
My lifestyle was religious because I grew up in Christ Apostolic Church (CAC) but wasn’t born again as at then. I was religious keeping all the commandments but without walking with the Lord. Let me put it this way, I was merely a moralist before I accepted Christ in my life.
Specifically, tell us how you encountered Christ from a mere moralist
I was invited to a crusade of now late Bishop Caleb Oloyede at the Police Ground, Mokola, Ibadan. When an altar call was made I went out and dedicated my life to Christ. After the altar call I knew something happened to me but couldn’t say what it was. I just knew I was so joyful and full of light until I started growing in Christ that I realized what happened to me that day was the joy of salvation. That was in December 1983. I joined the Christian Union and lived with the union leaders in the same accommodation. From there I started attending the church.
How and when did Outpouring of The Spirit Ministry appear along your walk with Christ?
After my university education, I served in the National Youth Service Corps (NYSC) in Jos, Plateau state. After concluding the mandatory one-year NYSC service, I stayed in Jos for a while before returning to Lagos in 1985. I started Outpouring of The Spirit Ministry in 1995 in Ibadan. Eventually, the Lord instructed me to come to Lagos to continue the ministry. I started the ministry in 1997 in Mushin, Lagos.
Specifically, what is the mandate of your calling to ministry?
The mandate of my calling is to raise faithful disciples and matured saints for the work of the ministry. All our church members are ministers wherever they find themselves including the marketplace. We see the market place as a platform for ministerial work; not just pulpit ministry. We raise our members for personal ministry like hospital ministry, prisons ministry, campus ministry etc which we support and back up. The minister would be personally responsible for his vision. We announce in the church for people who would like to join or finance the vision. We encourage all our members to have something doing to serve the Lord just like Jesus said anyone that wants to be his disciple must deny himself; take up the cross and follow him. Your cross is your divine assignment. Jesus carried his cross too; the work of redemption as his divine assignment. My own cross is my assignment that I’m doing now, and do it with everything within me. My various platforms, resources and the people around are the tools for my cross; my divine assignment to raise faithful and matured saints who useful for the work of the ministry.
What is your perspective on the running a ministry inside another ministry?
I don’t even have a church. The church I lead belongs to God. So people can have a ministry within my ministry. We would groom them, back them up, support them and encourage our members to join them. I do not own the church. I don’t treat it as my property. If God tells me today to move to another country to do his work I won’t look back. The ministry belongs to the owner; God. The pastors serving with me know that if they have a calling to go start a church, I’ll support them. I’ll even ask people to go with them. I belong to a group of ministers called New Covenant Ministry International (NCMI) with the head office in South Africa. We hold a yearly training in Nigeria. In NCMI, we don’t believe in church branching. We believe in raising sons, planting churches and putting saints who are matured and have paid their dues in charge of the churches. We do not see ministry as a platform of making money but as an opportunity to serve God.
How do you see the problem of lack of discipleship in many churches today?
The problem is the minister’s approach, ownership mentality and ruling members as if you’re their king and they’re your subject; whereas in the kingdom of God every believer is a king. We don’t use earthly wisdom to run the kingdom affairs.
Tell us the glimpses of heaven you said you’ve seen as proofs that heaven is real
I’ve seen several glimpses of heaven but I’ll share with you just one where I was taken to heaven in a vision. It was an overnight vision while I slept (dream). In that dream I was in an office and saw a man sitting behind a desk He was very tall; not of human height. I saw various files stacked in different sizes; big and small. And the man asked someone to go bring my file. In those files I saw various activities carried out by people.My understanding of that revelation shows the department in heaven where the work and files of ministers are being treated. Treating my file was to show me a work that had been assigned to me. Not long afterwards I started having the burden to groom people for the ministry. Maybe that was my own assignment that was shown to me in that file. So, I understand heaven is real! It’s not a joke! Heaven is not far away. Heaven is a location we can go to and come back. Jesus died, went to the father and came back. It was when Jesus was finally going that heaven arranged for us to see how he ascended. When he went at first we didn’t know how he went and how he resurrected. He defied the law of gravity when he was finally going to heaven. The Bible says the same way they saw him going the same way he’s coming back. His ascension was an intentional act by God to show the disciples the possibility of rapture because when rapture takes place we would also have a glorified body and be lifted up and also defy the law of gravity to join him. Eventually, we’ll still come back with him. Hence heaven is not far!
What is your new book, GOD’S WONDER BANK, circulating in many churches and conferences free of charge all about?
I have a friend whom I met in Warri, Delta state, Nigeria. While talking we talked about the concerns of the body of Christ. We discovered that there are so many people in the church who are former believers I call the offended brethren. A lot of believers are offended about the church, and offended brethrens are difficult to correct or instruct. Before you finish quoting a scripture they would completed it for you and tell you they’ve been there. They know all of it. They’ve been to several churches, so it’s all lies. We discovered that the main culprit behind these offences is the prosperity messages where members would be promised to become billionaires when they come to Christ but will have to sow a seed (give money) to buy the product of the grace for God is going to do for them. Whatever God will do through Christ is a product of grace. So, if you’re going to get anything in the name of Jesus, it must be a product of grace. Nobody has the money or potentials to pay for any item of grace; be it forgiveness of sin, redemption or the gift of the Holy Spirit. But today’s ministers are stylishly telling members to pay money before God will reach out or speak to them. If they don’t pay, they don’t get what they’ve been promised. And when people realize this is all cajoles to fleece them, they awake from their slumber and get bitter and offended saying it is not real. Some ministers are obliged to live in immortality like sleeping with church members because they need to renew their demonic powers. This raises the question of what can we do about all the deceptions on the pulpit that are bothering including the issue of why lots of brethren are no longer going to church today; they are no longer listening to gospel messages. People outside the church don’t want to come inside because of what they’re hearing about churches.
How do you aim to address or correct some of the issues through the book?
I do not want to join in the criticisms or in the correction of prosperity preachers openly, particularly on the platforms of social media. Rather, I choose to write the book to inwardly admonish erring preachers in love and sincerity without breaking the bond of our faith. The aim of the book is not to criticize but to correct errors. I read religious studies. I’m a sound theologian with degrees. There are principles for scriptural interpretations. Some of the lies of the prosperity preachers are by twisting the scriptures; thereby breaking the principles of scriptural interpretation to push their aims. One of the principles of scriptural interpretation is that you don’t base a doctrine on one scripture. A doctrine cannot be established except it is based on two or more scriptures. It is very easy to teach errors based on one leg.
Tell us about one of the chapters in the book and the issue it addresses
One of the chapters in the book talks about the faulty foundation of prosperity gospel. Riches in that passage has been translated to mean materials things. For instance, Corinthians 8:9 says Jesus died and became poor so we can be rich, which is an error because no other scripture supports it. Another principle of scriptural interpretation is you interpret scripture with another scripture. Prosperity preachers says that Christ was rich; met the people’s needs, solved their problems, paid taxes and fed 5000 people while earth but became poor while on the cross so that we can be rich. To answer that question you need to know the location of Jesus when he was rich, and his location when he was poor. What were the natures of his poverty and riches? What is the nature of what we get in him? Philippians chapter 2 helps us to understand that he was rich in heaven; not on earth. So, his riches were spiritual; not earthly. The nature of his riches was the ultimate access to God, authority and everything that pertains to it. Jesus became poor by coming to this earth. So, whatever he had on earth was poverty compared to the riches he had in heaven. So, he didn’t become poor on the cross. He became poor by coming to the earth so people can be rich. And these riches are what he had before he became poor. Jesus riches are son ship, access to God’s presence and spiritual authority. Those are the riches he talked about; not money or material blessings. If we say Christ came so we can be rich does that mean the unbelievers who are rich doesn’t need Christ? That means we don’t need Christ to be rich, or we don’t need to be born again to be rich because people are rich and have money without being born again. For a fact, it is easier to be rich outside Christ than in Christ because in Christ you can only pursue riches within the bound of righteousness. Christianity even limits our access to material things. Moreover, if unbelievers can have riches on their own then why will Christ come to die so they can have riches? To be Continued). You can call: 08023059599 or 08122468674 for copies of the book for FREE CIRCULATION in churches and conferences, and also for further inquiries.